One of the underlying foundations of the Protestant movement in the church has been Primitivism and Restorationism. Primitivism is the assumption that the early church was purer and closer to the essential gospel than that which accumulated over the centuries. Restorationism is the belief that Christians should attempt to restore the church to its original, primitive purity and power.
This is a very attractive ideal. When faced with the complex and often corrupt church–a church that was certainly in need of reform in many ways–the desire to dash it all and return to a simple, primitive and basic form of Christianity was understandable. The Protestant sects who did effect such reforms accomplished much that is admirable. They sought to bring a simple, heartfelt religion to the ordinary people. They attempted to simplify the complex theological and hierarchical structures of the Catholic Church.
Primitivism and Restorationism are actually noble ideals, and ones which drove all the reforming orders within the Catholic Church. The early monastic movement, the first Benedictines, the Franciscans and Dominicans, then the Jesuits–all of these had an element of the Primitive and Restorationist ideal driving their great endeavors.
Primitivism and Restorationism are therefore not wrong ideals in themselves. The problem (as in all heresy) is when a principle which is right in itself becomes the sole guiding principle, and excludes all others and eventually destroys everything that does not fit with its particular ideology.
When Primitivism and Restorationism become the sole guiding forces of a movement, then the movement cannot help but become sectarian and exclusive. Those who feel drawn to the Primitivist/Restorationist position need to stop and ask themselves some very probing questions:
First, if we are returning to a primitive Church, where will we discover just how that primitive church worshipped, what they believed and how they lived? We turn to the Book of Acts and the rest of the New Testament. But even within the pages of the New Testament we find differences of opinion and practice between the early churches. The Church in Corinth, for example, had problems with sin and speaking in tongues that the churches of Ephesus and Phillipi don’t seem troubled with. Furthermore, the church in the New Testament is already growing and developing in its understanding of the Church and the gospel.
Secondly, can the New Testament be the sole guide to what is primitive? If so, why do all the different Protestant sects come up with a different version of what is primitive? The Seventh Day Adventists say it is primitive to worship on Saturday. The other Protestants groups disagree. The Baptists say baptism by immersion is primitive and mandatory. Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists disagree. Some Mennonites and Amish demand communitarianism, others disagree. Pentecostals say speaking in tongues, signs, wonders and healings are a mandatory part of the package. Others say not. Who is to say just what is primitive and what is not?
Thirdly, where do we make the cut off point for what is Primitive and what is not? Do we stick only to the New Testament, or do we allow the witness of those Christians who wrote in the next generation after the Apostles? Is the church of the late first century the only primitive church we may emulate, or may we look to the church of the second, third or fourth centuries as well? If so, who makes such a decision and why?
If we allow Christianity of the fourth century to be primitive, shall we allow the fifth, the sixth and the seventh? Any attempt to devise a cut off date as to what is primitive and what is not is artificial and arbitrary. Furthermore, those Christians who wish to go furthest back and not, let’s say, allow anything from the fourth century cannot do so, for they rely on the Christians of the fourth century for their definition of orthodox Christian belief, the canon of Scripture and the proper understanding of the incarnation.
The fourth major problem with Protestant Primitivism/Restorationism is that too many of them are either ignorant of, or willfully ignore the witness of the early church that we do have. In addition to the New Testament, we have historical records of what early Christians believed, how they worshipped and how they behaved. The writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the description of Christian belief and practice from the Didache and Justin Martyr all signal a type of Christianity that is far more congruent with Roman Catholicism (and Eastern Orthodoxy) as it has always been lived and practiced, than the worship and lifestyle of modern day Protestantism. If our friends are really interested in restoring the Primitive Church why don’t they study the evidence that shows what that primitive Church was really like? If they did, perhaps they would not like what they find.
Fifth, assuming that we could have a full picture of the primitive church in, say, the early second century, why would it necessarily be desirable to replicate it? Why should the worship, life and beliefs of Christians in second century Roman empire be applicable to Christians in America in the 21st century? If it is applicable, to what degree is it? Shall we replicate the early Christians’ sincerity of preaching and zeal for evangelism, but ignore that they had bishops and priests, prohibited masses unauthorized by the bishop, and celebrated the Mass every Sunday? Shall we endorse their speaking in tongues and healing people, but ignore the fact that they prayed for the dead, venerated the Mother of God and kept relics of their saints for veneration? Once we discover what they did, how shall we choose which bits to keep and which to reject?
In fact, every Primitive/Restorationist movement has really only re-created a Christian Church according to their own tastes. They have seen what they liked and either imagined that it was part of the Primitive Church, or chose that strand of the primitive church that suited them, and focused on it to the exclusion of all else.
The Catholic position is that Primitivism and Restorationism (other than part of an authentic reform movement) is a false endeavor. Instead of trying to re-create the past, the Holy Spirit always guides the Church into the future. The present Pope’s ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ instructs us that the past informs the present and directs us into the future. True Catholics lament all in the past which was counter to the gospel, and value all in the past that was true to the gospel in every age. We do not try to go back to some fondly imagined golden age, but move forward into the future God has for us, instructed and guided by the wisdom of 2000 years of living the gospel.
Any group that claims to be ‘living the life of the Holy Spirit just like the early church’ may be sincere, but they are sincerely misguided.
Before we condemn “primitivism/or the back to basics” SOME Protestants and sects are dabbling in.I think it is important to state exactly what is the place and purpose e of the externals, the system in which the Church subsists; According to the CCC, there is a distinction between these externals and the Church.ANOTHER KIND OF kind of historicism, which could be said to be the OTHER SIDE OF THE SAME COIN/ is “DEVELOPMENT OF DOCTRINE”. Both emphasize the way the Church operates, and lives out the Faith, and claims to even be the vehicle that carries the Faith to the World.According to Church teaching there is a distinction between the Visible, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and the historical/social mechanisms, the externals, visible system/and operations in which SHE SUBSISTS”.The Gospel, which is nothing less than Jesus Christ, the Way, the only Way; AND THE CHURCH is the visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit working through her liturgies, her sacred mysteries, her sacred offices, her sacred dogmas, and her holy persons, and the Saints.No system can be elevated to equal status, of claim that the Gospel is not the Gospel, that the Way is only valid if wrapped up this or that external or the way “Church is done”.The Faith transcends all those things, and at different points in time some ways are more useful than others in carrying the mission of the Church, which is Proclamation of Christ, the Way, the Truth the Life.There is nothing particularly holy in the historic temporal, transient, ephemera in which she subsists, unless the Spirit Sanctifies and Transforms and can makes them Holy.But what I see and hear over and over again, because the Church IS AND MUST BE A VISIBLE CHURCH, everything included in this visible “cloak”, PART AND PARCEL, gets passed off as the Incarnation of Christ in the world.The church is made up of people who are imperfect, sinners, who are still working out there salvation, that there is reluctance and even discouragement to criticize, to call to repentance those, especially of high rank. As an institution people actually think that if she is statistically no better or worse than any other organization, then any kind of crime, corruption is somehow acceptable….or at least not anything that needs special attention.It has led to a dangerous type of , well, it’s beyond clericalism, almost like a tribalism, a Tribe that has God’s special favor; and the attitude towards it is almost a kind of idolatry, that at times has almost enshrined evil and deified these externals, many of them historic accidents, existing only because at that period of time, the were useful in carrying out the mission of the Church. (I am not talking about anything in the unchangeable Deposit of Faith, the unchangeable).This has had the same effect at “Primitivism” you said it well: “The problem (as in all heresy) is when a principle which is right in itself becomes the sole guiding principle, and excludes all others and eventually destroys everything that does not fit with its particular ideology…. a movement, then the movement cannot help but become sectarian and exclusive. THE ONE VISIBLE CHURCH, is manifested by the Holy Spirit working through her liturgies, her sacred mysteries, her sacred offices, her sacred dogmas, and her holy persons, the saints; Because she still functions in a fallen world, her members are made of of sinners, imperfect people, who are still working out their salvation;But even in these imperfections, she manifests the True Church only so far as her members, by the power of the Spirit given to her, through the Holy Spirit are imaging Christ through the same “emptying of self” or Kenosis that Christ lived and there is always a movement toward the Mark, toward their Telos, through the work of confession, repentance, reconciliation, restoration, and doing what is just where relationships have been broken, and all is done in humility, love, to friend and enemy alike; in this she visibly is the Church, transformed by Christ and in return transforming the world around Her.The talk of late, blaming the problems of the church on the sinful, evil culture she is surrounded by, is very troubling…and contradicts everything I have been taught about the Church being in the world, but not of the World…and that the Church is a transforming influence on Her environment, not the other way around.Maybe they feel the need to look back/as a last resort because the True Church is not so easy to see-especially if we keep pointing at the same old mess we Call the Church and tell them underneath it all, she is the Holy, Unspotted Bride of Christ…but you are just gonna have to trust us on this one. Sinful world, sinful people…what do you expect…this is the best we can do.
Interesting Post. I will read it in full when I have more time. It was interesting to see that there is some nodding to the noble desires of the reformers. I enjoy reading other peoples thoughts on the matter.-g-
George, it’s good to have you visiting here. You might like to read my book ‘More Christianity’. It is a friendly explanation of the Catholic faith to Evangelical Christians. Not ‘We’re right, you’re wrong’ but ‘you’re right, but there’s more to it you might like to consider.’If you would like one, send me an email, I will give you a copy. dlongenecker@charter.net
Very interesting post and comment by “Art.” I could not help remembering that primitivism is a major component of romanticism, which is a natural, recurring psychological drive in humanity, born of the human need to simplify excessive complexities, but which also has the unfortunate manifestation of “cleansing.” When unleashed and unchecked, it inevitably becomes the very monster it sought to destroy. It can only result in nihilism.
Speaking of protestants…I suppose this is a bit off topic but did anyone notice Obama’s quote on Meet the Press this morning? It was a ‘Without works we’re nothing’ sort of totally anti-lutheran catholic sounding quote. To bad he’s so bad on abortion issues.
Dwight,You have turned suffering into an idol, when you write: “So suffering is not only redemptive for us, but through it we may share in Christ’s own redemptive work in the world. It sounds an awful lot like the old Catholic word of encouragement to those suffering, “Well, offer it up.”That kind of misguided theology comes from steering away from the Bible and making up your own beliefs. Best stick to that ol’ time religion.Here’s some thoughts from a Catholic book by a Catholic evangelist which has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat from a Catholic archbishop which show your own brand of cult Catholicism is a million miles from true Catholcism.”Many of the great saints modelled their lives on Jesus as we should today. However, many of them were sick and infirm inspite of their faith. Why?During the first three centuries after Jesus’ resurrection, Christians suffered terriblly. There were mass crucifixions, torture, lion feeding etc.Despite this, miracles and healing were normal, as witnessed in Acts. After Constantine’s conversion, persecution stopped. As a result, Christians stopped calling in the presbyteries to anoint them for healing (James 5: 13-18)The Christians began accepting their sickness or misfortune, lack or depression, as a new way of carrying their cross. This became another martydom. This theology was added to over the centuries and continues largely in the (Catholic) church today. Suffering has been turned into an idol and you know Scripture warns against idols – whether wealth, power, greed or suffering.Now, suffering with great patience and offering it up for others is a wonderful thing that can produce holiness. However, this is not the cross Jesus said we should carry. The cross He spoke of was suffering for the sake of the Gospel, not sickness, disease or every type of calamity that befalls us. That view of suffering diminishes faith in God’s willingness to heal, protect or provide.So what of John Paul II’s very public suffering? The world does not value life much – abortion, euthanasia etc. John Paul’s very public witness flew in the face of the world’s beliefs. It was true redemptive suffering and a cross that had a sacrificial purpose beyond one’s own needs. A great witness -but it is the EXCEPTION not the rule for all sickness and suffering.It is not the only way. John Paul received round the clock medical care during his illness. If suffering is good, why take any medication? Why not pray for a worse disease?No, suffering has been answered by Jesus’ resurrection.” That, Dwight, is my edited version of Chapter 21 (Why is the Bible account regarding healing different from our experience) of the book by Eddie Russell, It’s Faith, Jim, But Not As We Know It.Hope this helpsJames
James, this is in agreement with what I have written in my earlier post on suffering: that Catholics encourage the whole range of the healing ministry, but that we also have a profound, Biblically based theology of suffering. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and agreeing with it by adding the perspective of another Catholic author.
Dwight,You would be more convincing if instead of writing “we have a profound,Biblically based theology of suffering,” you wrote “we have a profound, Biblically based theology of healing.” I’m not being pedantic, but if suffering is your heart, as I believe it is, then healing will only be a satellite. The evidence lies in the picture of Jesus which you chose to illustrate your article. Oh, I’m not denying his terrible suffering nor does it shame me. But its the traditional cult Catholicism which languishes in suffering more than healing and against which people like Eddie Russell, fight on a daily basis.Offer it up? No, throw it back from where it came: hell.James
From “Spe Salvi”, Pope Benedict XV140.”There used to be a form of devotion-perhaps less practised today but quite widespread not long ago-that included the idea of “offering up” the minor daily hardships that continually strike at us like irritating little jabs, thereby giving them a meaning. Of course, there were some exaggerations and perhaps unhealthy applications of this devotion, but we need to ask ourselves whether there may not, after all, have been something essential and helpful contained within it. What does it mean to offer something up ? Those who did so were convinced they could insert these little annoyances into Christ’s great “com-passion” so that they somehow became part of the treasury of compassion so greatly needed by the human race. In this way even small inconveniences of daily life could acquire meaning and contribute to the economy of good and of human love. Maybe we should consider whether it might be judicious to revive this practice ourselves.”and 37.”It is not by side-stepping or fleeing from suffering that we are healed but rather by our capacity for accepting it, maturing through it and finding meaning through union with Cgrist who suffered with infinite love.”Why not pray for a worse disease ? because that is yet another desperate attempt to take control.Why not surrender in hope to whatever God’s perfect will is ? whether it be miraculous healing or redemptive suffering. Either way, it`ll bring peace.
So you don’t have a Catholic hospital in your town, you’ve never seen someone anointed, you’ve never seen an icon of a physician-saint or Christ the Physician, you’ve never seen a votive shaped like a foot or hand hanging in an old church, and you’ve never read anything about any healing miracles.Theology of healing? More like excessive amounts of praxis. Heck, where to start?!Usually on the Net, we’re getting criticized for focusing too much on the body and not enough on the soul or the Bible or something like that, and that anything we say about healing is just superstitious nonsense….
Bernadette, Maureen,You both offer some good thoughts and are almost at the truth.But I thought Scripture tells us Jesus suffered so we don’t have to. Oh, I know Jesus never promised us a life without hardship or suffering. However, we need to guard against acceptance of suffering because when you read in the Gospels about the people who were healed, none of them accepted their plight. They all wanted healing. Even when people were ungratful for their healing, such as the nine lepers, Jesus never stopped healing. He didn’t say: “Well, people might not thank me, might not get healed spiritually, so I’m stopping all miracles today.”He never once told someone: “I could heal you but why not offer up your suffering for my glory.”No. He absolutely healed everyone who came to him that wanted healing.It is God’s perfect will that we are well, prosper, and not live in lack.It is the devil’s will that we are sick, suffer, live in lack, have depression, turmoil and fear in our lives. It is his special will we accept these and believe they are somehow from God.James
Yes, James, you are correct, we Catholics do have a “profound Biblically based theology of healing.” This theology of healing includes a “profound, Biblically based theology of suffering.”Thank you for clarifying this, and agreeing with the Catholic Church in this matter.One of the things we never want to do, however, is to turn our eyes away from the cross of Christ, by which our redemption was won, and which holds the mystery of the ages. As you know, the Mass is our daily memorial of that once for all suffering of our Savior. Through this we ‘proclaim Christ crucified’ as St Paul said. Through this, as he also wrote, we ‘preach Christ crucified.’I’m sure as a Bible based Christian, these are also wonderful truths you wish to affirm with us Catholics.
James, you said, “But I thought Scripture tells us Jesus suffered so we don’t have to…” Jesus did not suffer so that we don’t have to (suffer). He suffered so that we would have the chance to be with Him forever.His will is for us to be in union with Him.If we had no sin, we could be in union with Him. But Original Sin infects us all.Becoming the sort of being that can be in union with Him forever, therefore, is going to mean purification of sin for all of us.That purification isn’t always (or usually) going to be easy or painless. That’s why we call it ‘suffering.’Jesus’ death and resurrection made our entrance into Heaven possible, but not guaranteed; we still have a free will. The transformation of our will/soul/selves is necessarily going to involve suffering.You also said “However, we need to guard against acceptance of suffering…”I’m with you on the idea that God ultimately wants healing for all of us. But this isn’t heaven; it’s earth. For that reason, we need to accept the reality of suffering. It really is part of this life.If God chooses not to heal, then our part is to say, “Ok, Lord. Not my will, but Yours, be done.” What we need to guard against is lack of surrender to His will, even when we don’t understand why He would allow something imperfect.I realize this probably sounds quite harsh. But it stems from the belief that God is bigger than everything we go through, that He loves us, and that, as He brought the best good (our salvation) out of the worst (the Son of God dying on a cross), He can bring good out of anything and everything.
Dwight,I’m not so narrow minded that I can’t agree with the Catholic denomination on different issues! Hence the fact I support Catholic ministries and a lot of Catholic teaching.Certainly proclaim Jesus crucified; but speak Jesus raised!James
M,You almost won me over – until you wrote: “If God chooses not to heal”Can you show me one place in the Gospels where Jesus told some: “I don’t want to heal you” and did not?James
Thanks Father Dwight -Good Article – But does not some of this logic follow suite with various issues within the church today, i.e., return to the Latin Mass, Facing away from the people during Mass, even the continued practie of non-married priest?Even within my Diocese we see the movement “to go back to an earlier way” or more traditional forms to make the Mass the way it was.Just a thought…
James,The Bible never says that Jesus laughed, but it did say that he wept…. so did Jesus only cry and never smile?-Christopher
I agree with some of your points, Fr. Dwight. However, I wonder though if a naive evolutionism is any bettern than a naive restorationism.It seems that, while this particular Catholic critique of Protestantism has force, it rests on many assummptions that often go unobserved, thus debilitating the discussion. One of these I take to be the basic assumption that any distinction between the apostolic and the post-apostolic witness of the church ought not to be pressed. I am not conviced that we are free to erase such a distinction. If the very notion of a distinctive apostolic witness that is able to critique the present reality of the church becomes a wax nose, I don’t know how the church can ever call itself into question in any meaningful sense.An unrelated question, Fr. Dwight, have you read much Newman? I might be interested in corresponding with you about his thought and significance.All the best,Halden
Christopher,Could I ask you why you think Jesus wept?As a Catholic, I was taught it showed his human side. He was overcome with grief as people often are at funerals or when faced with illness or lack. Jesus weeping, I was told, showed sometimes there is nothing we can do, sometimes we face storms and will go under. But at least we have Jesus at our side, sharing our grief and comforting us in our despair.James
James,I don’t have time to dig in to this at the moment, but I hope you are not pushing the “prosperity gospel”. I appreciated much of what I caught from skimming your comments.The two most Godly and Christ-focused people I have ever encountered were very ill for a long time… one still is. Sometimes, there is purpose in suffering… but it is more in the triumph of someone who still proclaims the goodness of God in the midst of pain that the very purpose is found.Is it easier for us to be examples when all is well or when things are looking pretty grim? We must not forget the thorn in the flesh that Paul was never released from. What that was… no one is absolutely certain, but it was something that caused him difficulty.I once heard a quote… don’t remember exactly how it goes, but it went something like this…”The potential for God to receive glory can greatly increase when we find ourselves in the midst of struggle.”Having said that, while Christ walked the earth He did heal so many people. Some He said it was because of faith… others, He healed, and I’m sure their faith was lacking.Bless you all!-g-
James wrote: “I thought Scripture tells us Jesus suffered so we don’t have to.”Do you have a reference for this James? The closest I can come to is, “By his wounds we are healed.”
George,Some of the most godly people I know are free from pain, sickness, depression, lack – and they are Catholic and non-Catholic.Some of the people most distant from God that I know are living in lack, sickness and depression – and both Catholic and non-Catholic.If sickness makes you closer to God, why did Jesus not just leave the sick he encountered in their sickness?Dwight – Isaih is a pretty good Scripture from where to start.James
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It would be nice if Resurected Christ crucifixes outnumbered the suffering ones 10 to 1. Afterall, Christ only spent a short time on the Cross in the span of his life and the last 2000 years. His current reality is resurrected, to I don’t see why he’s always nailed to the cross. My understanding is that the Risen Christ symbology was far more prevalent in the early church.So I would like to go all primitive and get more into Risen Christ crucifixes and focus on the death-conquered aspect of things.That being said I’ve offered up minor pains and found it to be extremely effective.
It would be nice if Resurected Christ crucifixes outnumbered the suffering ones 10 to 1. Afterall, Christ only spent a short time on the Cross in the span of his life and the last 2000 years. His current reality is resurrected, to I don’t see why he’s always nailed to the cross. My understanding is that the Risen Christ symbology was far more prevalent in the early church.So I would like to go all primitive and get more into Risen Christ crucifixes and focus on the death-conquered aspect of things.That being said I’ve offered up minor pains and found it to be extremely effective.
James,I wasn’t trying to make a blanket statement, but rather just a specific case in point. I am quite thankful that many you know who are well and perhaps well to do are so close to God. There is also purpose in healing. I just think that todays message of “Everyone should be healed if they are a child of The King” is a stretch.M.C. I agree with you on your perspective of the cross. We must never “turn away from the cross” as was pointed out, but we should never forget that our Lord is a risen Lord… the only one I might add 🙂 Amen!?! Always good to remember the suffering, but Joy comes with the morning… Joy comes through the resurrection of Jesus.May the Love of Christ shine through each of you this week, to the glory of God!-g-
George,Good words and thanks for the blessing. Both are always welcome.For a great Catholic perspective on the Prosperity Gospel versus the Poverty Gospel, see Flame Ministires International. This is a Catholic charismatic group based in Australia which has the full backing of their local bishop. You’ll find a piece by Eddie Russell on that topic – so much better than the (thankfully few) dodgy TV evangelists who ‘preach’ on same.All blessings to you and your familyJames
James: Jesus wept because he was fully man, so he indeed suffered and felt pain and grief, etc, etc. I don’t see how this solidifies your point.The point I was trying to make is that the entirety of Jesus’ life and ministry isn’t in the Bible, so perhaps He did leave some people unhealed, and I kind of find that thought comforting.Marcus Aurelieus: I find the current balance of “Resurrected Christ” crucifixes to “Suffering Christ” crucifixes quite satisfactory. Christ resurrected is easy to picture, Christ being broken and nailed to the cross by my sins is easy to ignore, so a visual reminder is most helpful.
14Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. 16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18″The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, 19to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[e] 20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.” 22All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked. 23Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself! Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’ ” 24″I tell you the truth,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27And there were many in Israel with leprosy[f] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.” 28All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him down the cliff. 30But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.This verse would seem to suggest that there were no healings here. It also seems to suggest that there were those in Nazareth who were in need of healing, and that they wanted him to perform the same kinds of works that he did in Capernum, but he refused because they hardened their hearts against him.
Hear hear good post. I sense a particular refutation of the via media in Fr. Longenecker’s words. Since they hold to “only the first five centuries” as “truly Catholic”, “before it devolved into Romanism.” But on what grounds such cherry-picking of the regula fidei? On what rational do you make the cut off point the fifth century – we can ask our Protestant Catholic (Anglican) brothers? At least the “Anglican Communion” holds some semblance of historicity in liturgy and doctrine. In contrast the fanatical wings of Protestantism – shouting “semper reforma”! Truly the sons of Ἡράκλειτος ὁ Ἐφέσιος live on. But we need not to go to such extremes, for our faith is the faith of history, or as the great Cardinal Newman said, to take history serious is to cease being a Protestant.__________________R.E. Aguirre- regulafide.blogspot.com
Christopher,Why would Jesus weep overcome by grief at Lazarus’ death when he knew the man was about to be resurrected?Perhaps Jesus wept at the lack of faith he saw all around him? After all, he just announced he was the Resurrection. Perhaps he wept at the hold Satan had over the world -a hold that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection broke once and for all. Remember death was not in God’s plan – it came about through sin.At the end of his Gospel, John states if everything was written about Jesus, the world would not have room for all the books.But to suggest Jesus withheld healing from some people and these incidents were somehow left out of the Gospels, is a bit too far fetched.Also, to say you believe Jesus withheld healing from some people and you find that suggestion comforting, is simply obnoxious.If my son broke his leg and asked me to drive him to hospital and I as his loving father refused to take him, would you describe my actions as “comforting” – or would you regard them as plain wrong?Jesus healed everyone who came to him but not everyone who came to him was healed – there is a major difference. The woman with the issue of blood who reached out to him in faith was healed, but all the others pressing against Jesus because they saw him as a magician or good luck charm, were not healed. I agree with Marcus that we need more resurrected crosses or blank crosses. The Celtic Christians had them long before the Reformation.Agent Smith – Jesus did not refuse to heal in Nazareth; he simply was not able to do so. That does not mean he lacked power. Jesus is not a magician who pops a miracle down from heaven. He needs us to co-operate with him and show faith, even faith the size of a mustard seed. In Nazareth, he found none so he could not heal. But he never REFUSED when to heal people who came to him in faith.James
“The problem (as in all heresy) is when a principle which is right in itself becomes the sole guiding principle, and excludes all others and eventually destroys everything that does not fit with its particular ideology…. “This is the same problem that I have with the orthodox traditionalists within the Roman Catholic Church today. But rather than going back to the primitive Church, they seek to revive the Church of Trent. I think a case could be made that this movement as well is a bit astray.
“Why would Jesus weep overcome by grief at Lazarus’ death when he knew the man was about to be resurrected?Perhaps Jesus wept at the lack of faith he saw all around him? After all, he just announced he was the Resurrection. Perhaps he wept at the hold Satan had over the world -a hold that Jesus’ life, death and resurrection broke once and for all. Remember death was not in God’s plan – it came about through sin.”Perhaps it was all of those things which are completely in keeping with what the Catholic Church teaches. I have heard our priests preach all of the above.
radio45, I hold that the Church of Trent is the same one as the Church of Vatican II plus 43 years. It is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic. While there are some pockets of overzealous people preferring the Traditional Latin Mass, I find them to be the exception, and not the rule. What I have found in the last 40 years with the Mass of Paul VI, is a rather frequent denial of the Divinity of Christ, even by priests who might not think they are doing so. Now that, is heresy. I must also say that I find your term “orthodox traditionalists” to be divisive, and I think it unhelpful. Blessings.
If all of Christ’s miracles required faith, then why the conversion of Saul?… He was actively against the faith at the time of the miracle. Wouldn’t the working of a miracle at Nazareth have brought faith to some of those there? Also, if there is no meaning in suffering, then what is the point of the Book of Job?
Hi James,No, of course I cannot show you a Scripture reference for Jesus directly refusing to heal someone.But here’s another way to look at this: if God is most interested in getting me/my heart closer to Him and if He can see that physical healing would be in any way less effective in achieving His/that goal, why wouldn’t He take the route that gets me closer to Him? It’s natural for us to think that loving someone well includes promoting their physical well-being. Here on earth, that’s the case most of the time. But because God is wiser than we are (and omniscient), He can be said to love us perfectly while yet not healing all of our physical defugelties.Here’s an example: it’s easy for us on earth to say “If God loved Jesus so much, why didn’t He rescue Him from dying on the Cross?!!”Well….God knows best. He (*and* Jesus, of course) freely chose to allow His Son to be treated horribly by us, and to die on the Cross, because He foresaw the good it could and would gain. Despite the risk (i.e., we wouldn’t all choose to love Him, even though Jesus did die for us), He thought the Crucifixion was worth it; giving you, me, us the chance to be free to love Him was worth it to Him.Same thing with healing. “If God chooses not to heal,” it’s because He’s after a good that’s greater than physical healing.Does that help?
I don’t recall any time that Christ looked at suffering and called it good. And it would seem that the suffering of Christ and in turn the suffering of Paul and the saints, what was good came out of choosing to bear the cross, choosing to lay down their life for the greater Good, out oflove…….there is no greater love. I do not see suffering for self, to enhance one’s own holiness or standing with God anywhere.It is choosing, this is redemptive suffering.There has grown up around the Catholic theology of suffering, or “offering it up”, almost a callousness toward the pain of others. It is hard to see someone suffer; it is easier to tell yourself that they it is a gift that will bring rewards to them and others than, and as I have seen all too often, and excuse to admit that their pain is not redemptive, but is a result of someone else’s selfishness, cruelty, and even self-righteousness.And their pain is anything but redemptive, but it becomes faith destroying as they feel they must bear the wound after wound and not protest, but “offer it up”.What better way to be excused from being your brother’s keeper than by telling yourself they are becoming more holy, more pure through their pain.This is what I see as a great danger……..have seen over and over.People told to offer it up when they suffer comes directly under the hands of another.This is a heresy of dualism that goes hand in hand with this Theology of suffering/that is rarely tempered by love. For it is simply becomes the case as Wendell Berry put it “that the body is a kind of scrip issued by the Great Company Store in the Sky, which can be cashed in to redeem the soul but is otherwise useless”To treat your own body is to desecrate it and to despise the incarnation,and leads to the view of the physical bodies of others are merely abstractions, not as an integral part of the whole human person;We can abuse people, but not abstractions….and that is what I see.All kinds of abuse on the continuum from simple not ” seeing” and caring for them to the most vile violence.Check your creation math……Man = body + soul. is NOT how we were made.But rather……… Living soul = dust + breath.This is a cultural sickness and has warped our view of the wholeness of the humanity. Especially in this culture, where things can be “seen”, but not considered “real”, is it any wonder we can destroy, exploit, consume to the destruction of the very earth that sustains us.What value the human body, when Theology teaches that suffering is seen as it’s highestmost God-like, Holy purpose.
Agent Smith – (definitely the best blog name out there)Saul’s conversion was similar to the healing of the man born blind (John 9) Both were dramatic, but neither was forced, The two men had to show faith for their respective healings, as we all need to do.The blind man, as I stated, did not go to God seeking healing. He was brought by the disciples. To receive healing, he had to show faith and that came in his walk to the Pool of Siloam.He could simply have wiped off the dirt from his eyes, called Jesus a fraud and went back to begging – still blind.In the same way, Saul did not go to God, God came to him. His meeting was more dramatic. When he was struck blind, it was a time for him to examine what was happening, just as the blind man had a choice.This voice which stopped and spoke to Saul, had power and authority. Saul must have known who it was.However, Saul could still have rejected the call. He would have regained his sight and carried on as before. God made a dramatic intervention, but Saul still had to make that step of faith.Remember the rich young man (Luke 18: 18) He had a dramatic encounter with Jesus and a chance to show faith by giving all his money away. However, he chose not to, making his money and ability to make money, his god over Jesus. He walked away sad, while the blind man and Saul did not.Healing, in every sense of that word, involves faith in us, even a small amount. God will not force us.Certainly a miracle at Nazareth would have brought faith to many, as would miracles in church today! But the remarkable thing about God is he will not coerce.I never said there is no meaning in suffering. I cited the wonderful example of Pope John Paul’s suffering in later life, especially in a humanist, secular world promoting abortion, euthanasia etc.Suffering can be used in a positive way. However, it is the exception not the rule. God wants us well, living in abundance, not in depression or pain. As for Job. Well, Christians who promote suffering often refer to Job. Yet, they never seem to get to the end of the book! Read Job 42: 10 to the end. Quite a revelation.JamesJames
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James,I don’t mean to be obnoxious, and I’m sorry you find my outlook on life obnoxious. Perhaps you’ll find my apology obnoxious, too. Bummer.Either way, a father caring for an injured child is not the same as healing the child. We must also remember that His ways are not our ways…. But I digress.The reason I find it comforting to know that Jesus would not heal me just because I asked is much in line with the reasoning of “m,” I wish not my will, but His Will to be done. I do hope that Jesus would heal me, but if it is His Will that my leg fall off – well then HOT DAMN! I’m tickled pink to watch my leg fall off, and I pray that I will have the strength to grow in faith, courage, and wisdom from the experience of watching my leg fall off.Perhaps you should try the Act of Resignation:“My Lord God, even now I accept at Thy hands, cheerfully and willingly, with all its anxieties, pains and sufferings, whatever kind of death it would please Thee to be mine.”If I’m willing to cheerfully and willingly die with anxieties, pains and sufferings, should I not be willing to live that way?
What the heck happened to this thread? I mean, nothing on here after the first comment is even remotely related Fr. Dwight’s post (which I found compelling and would like to have talked about). Beware of people who monopolize the conversation so as to keep others from the Truth, Father. Remember, it’s your ‘blog.
It sort of got hijacked when James H made a comment on this post which really should have been made on another post.Sorry!
Hi Christopher and M,First apologies to Dwight as his blog has been hijacked again, but its (usually) good comment from his many admirers and contributors.Some of the comments I write keep being deleted. I guess I can sum up my views by suggesting you read It’s Faith, Jim, But Not As We Know It by Eddie Russell or his other book, 12 Steps to Deivine Healing. They offer the best view of true Catholic teaching on suffering and healing.In those pages you fill find theology based less on an Act of Resgination and more on the Acts of the Apostles. The former is religion, the latter faith.Resignation is the same as doubt against which Jesus warned and chastised his apostles and which meant they could not heal. God bless you both and nay He heal you in every sense of that word.James
ooops,Christopher, M,My last piece should readGod bless you both and may he heal you in every sense of that wordJames
I think it is a mistake to absolutize the worth of physical healing of the body on this earth. It is a feeble way to deal with death anxiety.How are we really healed by Christ? Reconciliation with God and the promise of the resurrection of our glorified, resurrected bodies on the Last Day.Everyone Christ healed eventually died. Even Lazarus.God’s will is sweeter to me than any relative good in my life.Last June 14, I had my agony in the garden prayer–Lord, let my PET CT scan results be good! No, wait, correct that–let them be accurate. (What good are good results if it’s a false negative and I let a disease go untreated?) The Holy Spirit teaches us to pray even when we do not know how to pray as we ought! So, realizing my true petition, my conclusion was: Lord, I will have peace and joy in all circumstances, because God is good no matter what the results are! Jesus Christ be praised, today, tomorrow, and forever! While I wish to be healthy and have good results, not my will but Thine be done! I will drink the cup if You want me to. But no matter what, peace and joy in all things!Accepting yourself as a contingent being, and centering yourself on the eternal God who is Love and loves you, makes you hold on to this earth more lightly. It is easier to accept the aches and pains of aging, disease, eventual death, when you know you’re getting this body back, perfected even better than it ever was here.Catholics aren’t masochistic and I’ve never heard of abusing the offer it up concept in tolerating evil. In fact, Catholics teach that admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy. That is really from left field.Col 1:24 can turn your suffering from something that turns you in on yourself in self-pity, pain, and depression, into a gift of charity for others. My father in the nursing home with debilitating Parkinson’s models this beautifully for me. He is filled with peace and joy, the crowning of a good life, even while physically whacked out. He is childlike in his trust in God and his caretakers. He accepts all from the hand of God.Because what happens in my life IS God’s will for my life.So when I was diagnosed with breast cancer–totally a surprise–as a result of that PET CT scan, God honored my prayer and gave me the gifts that the Bible already promises me. I was upset for exactly ONE DAY, and had grief for only half and hour. But the Psalmist says, at night I soak my pillow with tears, but his joy comes in the morning. The next morning, I was filled with the peace and joy I had already committed myself to. I have never been sad or upset since.The suffering of treatment was offered up for a whole written journal of prayer intentions in the spirit of Col 1:24. It’s prayer power for intercessors! That’s what the Bible says.Sometimes God doesn’t give a healing because his Divine Providence will have events unfold in a different way that is better for you in the long run. It has certainly worked that way for me. I am amazed at His wisdom! There is a whole chain of events dating back thirty years leading to this moment, and I won’t go into it, besides to say, ALLELUIA!I’ve had three primary cancers, but I am not a masochist seeking suffering; if it comes my way, I know what to do with it. Three cancers could really tempt a person away from faith; God must really trust me. LOL I don’t think God is punishing me. It’s just crazy biology. They don’t know why I’ve had three primary cancers–such a thing is rare; even genetic testing can’t figure it out.The more Divine Providence unfolds in my life, the more I trust in it. GOD IS GOOD!!!Lord, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me, but not my will but Thine be done!–That’s where Jesus teaches us to accept all from the hand of God. In the agony in the garden. All our prayer requests include the spoken or unspoken condition, “Lord, if it is thy will…do this!” If we don’t accept God’s will as greater than our own, we have turned God into Santa Claus and are manipulating Him like an idol. You don’t have magic powers over God.Don’t absolutize the relative, because you will get old/sick/injured and die someday, and you have staked your faith on the wrong things that aren’t really important in the long run. That’s a bad spot to find yourself in.I hate how faith healers criticize the faith of those who don’t get miraculous healings. That’s abominable.