A recent post about atheism elicited a bizarre comment. I had observed that atheists may soon find it necessary to actively neutralize or eliminate religious believers as dangerous extremists and harmful bigots. An unbeliever commented that they wouldn’t need to. They would just wait for all the believers to die out in the face of the indomitable force of technology driven secularism.
The lack of awareness by this supposedly enlightened soul is astounding. All the statistics show that, rather than decreasing, religious belief around the world is increasing at a very fast pace. Islam is a fast growing religion, but Christianity is growing faster. Furthermore, religious belief is not only growing as the world population grows, it is growing faster than the normal expected growth of the world population. Even further furthermore, it is traditional religion that is experiencing the greatest surge of growth.
Technology and science haven’t lessened humanity’s appetite for religion, because as it grows the world population is also growing in awareness of, and use of modern technology. Where traditional religion is waning is in the affluent, amoral countries. This would lead us to conclude that it is affluence and decadence that affect religious belief negatively, not technology or science in and of themselves.
I don’t have a problem with people being atheists. I don’t have a problem with people be smart. What does get my goat is people who strut around as smart atheists, who haven’t really thought through their position. So many that I meet seem to have done just what they accuse dumb theists of doing: swallowing the propaganda pills. They’ve read a headline somewhere or heard a sophomoric argument against religion or the Catholic Church and never trouble themselves to find out whether it is true, whether it is logical or whether it is sustainable at all.
Take the person who commented: he must have caught on to the popular notion of progressivism–that each and every day in each and every way we are getting better and better. He believes this because of the wonders of science and technology. In other words, because we have more gadgets, can communicate faster and manipulate our bodies and our environment more we are somehow improved as human beings. All of this despite the fact that we have just emerged from the century in which we have at once made the fastest technological progress and also exhibited the most vast moral decadence, violence and depravity the world has ever seen. So this is progress?
Hi Fr,You make the comment that Christianity is growing faster than Islam, this is the second time I have heard this claim recently, I don’t suppose you would be able to give me the source for this claim, as the conventional wisdom (at least in England) would seem to assume the opposite and it would be great to be able to counter this (if indeed it isn’t the case).Thanks
Philip Jenkins’ book ‘The New Christendom’
I think the advancement of technology will more rapidly advance religious beliefs and theology as we can now have deep, meaningful and diverse discussions with people around the world from the comfort of our own homes.If we were only humans having a spiritual experience, we would be getting progressively better and better thanks to technology if that’s all there was. But since it isn’t and we’re eternal spirits having an earthly experience the argument fails.While all that technology might in some ways be convenient, nothing can replace or replicate the touch of a human hand helping another, the arm of a friend’s consolation or the compassion of a human heart. Take away all the technology and the only thing we really need remains: Love.How fast I text, publish my blog, or drive means nothing. How fast I forgive and Love others is everything.
With athiests having few or no children, and religious people (I’m talking about worldwide here — not just in the West) having lots, who is going to die out? People just don’t THINK.
Thanks… from its Amazon reviews it looks fascinating..
The real-ness (“reality” being a most piteously abused word) of God is increasing. As secularism grows more powerful, as atheists grow louder, God grows more ever more real.Because:With all this dazzling progress, and all that jazz, we are only left with the famous final philosophical observation of Peggy Lee: “Is that all there is?”
” They would just wait for all the believers to die out in the face of the indomitable force of technology driven secularism.”You misunderstood slightly. I believe that between technology tha offers life but conflicts with belief, people will choose the technology.If you had to choose wheter to have a kid without genes that increased their risk of disease, would you take it even if it required discarding embryos? Would you accept stem cell based cures? What about nanite scrubbers in your blood? Each step offers more rewards, but weakens those who have to give up belief those who are opposed to it.This generally leads to more wishy-washy positions which slide into atheism more easily.”Where traditional religion is waning is in the affluent, amoral countries. “Worldwide GDP growth exceeds population growth. As for amoral, the most moral ones are totally secular- Sweden comes to mind.”he must have caught on to the popular notion of progressivism–that each and every day in each and every way we are getting better and better. “We aren’t. Some trends are likely to continue however.”All of this despite the fact that we have just emerged from the century in which we have at once made the fastest technological progress and also exhibited the most vast moral decadence, violence and depravity the world has ever seen. So this is progress? “Poland took the most casulties at 16%. In the classical world, Ceasers conquest of Gaul killed one in three, with 90% depopulation being common for many wars in the ancient era.Our most savage modern war and we can’t match the Roman legions!”With athiests having few or no children, and religious people (I’m talking about worldwide here — not just in the West) having lots, who is going to die out? People just don’t THINK.”Such growth is predicted to tapper off by 2050, at which time conversion will determine percentages more than birthrates.””Is that all there is?””Yes.
“‘Is that all there is?’ Yes.”In that case, Mr. Skinner, the suicide rate will continue to climb. Human beings cannot accept a merely physical world, no matter how “progressed” it may be. In times of war, famine, plague,and the like, it is true that we tend to rely on God more and less on ourselves, and so it is easy to dismiss that reliance as an avoidance of despair. But in times of affluence, peace, and progress, the need for God intensifies. That is why in times of progress, the conversion rate is higher (as Fr. L. said). It is precisely in times of plenty that one comes face-to-face with the inescapable fact that No. It’s not enough. I don’t know who said that if God did not exist, it would be necessary to create him, but it’s true. We do not believe in God because we lack the advances that human achievement brings, but precisely because we do not lack them. You have to “get” something to know that it doesn’t matter. Experience teaches the falsity of “If I only had health/prosperity/peace/love/whatever, I would be happy.” And there is no mature human being anywhere who does not recognize the profound truth of “For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?”It is such an irony that atheists believe themselves wiser than theists. In old age, they tend to become sentimental, even sappy, about human love, and to mutter tearfully such comments as “the meaning of life is in relationships” as though they had discovered ultimate truth, but the fact is that they have only begun to learn the humility required to recognize human insufficiency. It really only amounts to the discovery of one’s own personal insufficiency, even though it is a first small step toward the humility required to believe–really believe–in God. Still more living (and loving) is necessary to recognize the insufficiency of human love. Two leaves rejoice in their discovery of each other, the apparent end of their aloneness, but it is impossible to find life only in the consciousness of another. Apart from the tree, the leaves will die. Human love, like human life, is finite, limited not only in its lifespan but in its capability to meet the need for meaning, for logos, in every human heart. No matter how many loved ones gather round the deathbed, one dies alone.And you think that advances in technology is “all there is”? I must admit there is a kind of innocence in such naivete.
Personally, I’m sitting by the river, waiting for the bodies of all my enemies to float by. Technology is the stuff of total ambivalence. Any apparent qualities assigned to it are a result of the use to which it is put and the motivation behind it. Was it Edward R. Murrow who had such high hopes for the teaching potential of TV? Look how that turned out. The problem is larger than most good folks expect. There are 52 million square miles of terra firma on this orb and only 20% of that is habitable and only 2% of that is arable. If we were still hunter-gatherers instead of bloggers, we’d need one of two things, given the necessary 5 square miles of pristine wilderness necessary to feed each of us: 1) a population one-thirty-seven-thousandth the size of this one or 2) a planet 34 thousand times bigger. In spite of this kind of territorial pressure, the Church is right about abortion. There has to be another way.As for the atheist, there are but two essential states of felicity: spiritual death and physical life and physical death and spiritual life. Life is the transition between the two and only one is permanent. The good Christian prefers the latter for his permanent condition. The atheist picks and chooses to his heart’s content. In the end, the permanent condition he achieves and indeed preferred in life is spiritual and physical death. There is only one way for one to become a committed atheist: he must become his own god. And he believes that in the end when he dies there is the end of god and the universe because he is god and the universe was just a figment of his imagination. He becomes god by confining what is known to that within his own mind and by setting himself up as master of that tiny domain. Everything that filters into it is evaluated by his own limited mind and is suspected to be created by his own imagination. Within that realm, nothing is more powerful than his own human intellect. For him, nothing else exists. The moment he acknowledges anything that is not a product of his own imagination, anything he himself cannot control or anything more powerful than himself, he has admitted the existence of God. He therefore must contend with a world of ambiguities he has no power of his own to explain. Faced with an empirical world and pestered by spiritual problems, the answer will be a meeting of reason and heart somewhere in the twain.
Atheists die out?I would like to point out that the children that the secular and practical atheists will have are YOUR children.By controlling education and other government institutions, the secular elites will ‘teach’ your children the progressive ways. By way of example, I point to the court case in MA, where a father of a student sued over a school’s objectionable lesson (homosexuality, if I recall correctly) and lost. The court ruled that the father had no say over what was taught nor that the school had any obligation to notify the parents about what was to be taught.With schools being run by the Nat’l Educ. Assoc., a very ‘progressive’ organization, they can teach your children what they will. They don’t need to reproduce as long as they have your children.The real answer is Catholic education. Meanwhile, schools and government will become more antagonistic to families.
“In that case, Mr. Skinner, the suicide rate will continue to climb. Human beings cannot accept a merely physical world, no matter how “progressed” it may be. “Albania had an… interesting ruler during the Cold War. He wanted to make a totally atheist society. And he succeeded. No rise in suicide rates were reported.” In times of war, famine, plague,and the like, it is true that we tend to rely on God more and less on ourselves, and so it is easy to dismiss that reliance as an avoidance of despair.”You should rely on the government in the latter two. Unless it is incompetant, in which case, I recommend alternate organizations.”That is why in times of progress, the conversion rate is higher (as Fr. L. said). “It also means that people stick to their faiths less. They are experimenting more.”if God did not exist, it would be necessary to create him” -Voltaire”Experience teaches the falsity of “If I only had health/prosperity/peace/love/whatever, I would be happy.” ““I give men dreams and men are led by their dreams.”-Macharius”For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?”The only men who would do so, would not care about their loss.”No matter how many loved ones gather round the deathbed, one dies alone.”So? Why fear death? Why fear the transiant nature of reality? In the end the stars will die and none will remember you or IMatter itself will disentigrateSo live for “now”, for at the end of eternity you will be dead.”And you think that advances in technology is “all there is”? I must admit there is a kind of innocence in such naivete.”I don’t think that. I think that it is enough to shape mens minds.”There has to be another way.”Read Malthus. I prefer the current method as it is more humane.”There is only one way for one to become a committed atheist: he must become his own god. “We aren’t all Sith. Most of us aren’t that crazy.”And he believes that in the end when he dies there is the end of god and the universe because he is god and the universe was just a figment of his imagination.”That is solphists.”Within that realm, nothing is more powerful than his own human intellect. “Well, for wattage, my microwave beats me, for force gravity does, for work, the car does…”He therefore must contend with a world of ambiguities he has no power of his own to explain.” If you don’t know the answer look. Ask. Find it.”With schools being run by the Nat’l Educ. Assoc., a very ‘progressive’ organization, they can teach your children what they will. They don’t need to reproduce as long as they have your children.”Actually, it turns out fellow students have a larger impact on students personalities.
Mr. Skinner,I’m impressed by the labor you undertook to answer isolated excerpts from my post and others. None of the answers, however, refute the thesis. (You mention Albania, for example, yet you don’t acknowledge that this society and all other societies with atheist policies fail to endure. There have been several; they all die.)Good luck to you, sir. For a Christian, however, “good luck” means “God’s blessings,” and I can think of nothing better for you than that. I suspect, actually, that God is indeed blessing you. An atheist/proponent of atheism who makes challenging comments on a Christian blog is already in a relationship of struggle with the Holy Spirit. I can think of nothing more fortunate for you than that you lose the struggle.